ļ»æEpisode 33. Insights from an Insider with Heidi Heitkamp
Michelle Rathman: Hello and welcome back to the Rural Impact. I'm Michelle Rathman and you are in store for another enlightening conversation that works hard to connect those dots between policy and rural everything, or at least as I say, everything that we can think of. Now today we are kicking off a new series and it's one that we've actually been planning for, for quite some time.
And the reason is in case you didn't know it, we are heading into one of the most consequential events, one of the most significant events that I can think of in my own lifetime. Perhaps you feel the same way. Of course, that is the 2024 election. And because of the state of our nation, where this is concerned, we're going to call this series just, very simply, Courageous Conversations About the 2024 Election.
Now, if you've added us to your podcast lineup, and we're very happy that you have. If you've not become a subscriber, we sure hope that you will do that. You can do that at theruralimpact.com, or of course, wherever you would like to get your podcast. But I want to say this because it's worth repeating.
Every road to the quality of our collective lives, whether it's you individually, your family, your community, your neighbors, each of these roads that we travel on, their quality is paved by policy. And no matter what other media you consume, and I'm sure you consume many other sources for your media, wherever you rely on to get your news.
I want you to know that we here at The Rural Impact, we work to tune out that backroom noise. And which can be hard to do, and we want to filter out that pundit prognostication. And instead, we really wanting to go deeper into the content that helps us get to the heart of policies and their impact on rural.
And that means whether it lifts us up or leaves rural places behind. Now, full disclosure we've blinked a few eyes, maybe slept a few nights since recording my first courageous conversation in this series, and in that time, of course, a few things have happened, but I can assure you, I really mean this, my time with U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp, who served as the first female senator elected from the great state of North Dakota from 2013 to 2019. And now who is also the Founder and Chair of the One Country Project, an organization focused on addressing the needs and concerns of rural America. Also, Heidi is the Director of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago.
And if you didn't know it. You need to know now she is also the co-host of the Hot Dish podcast alongside her brother Joel. This conversation is priceless and I think you'll agree her words timeless and our conversation truly as timely as it gets. All right, so it's that time when I invite you to get into your podcast frame of mind and listen to my Rural Impact conversation with Senator Heidi Heitkamp.
Are you ready? I sure am. So, let's go.
Michelle Rathman: Former U. S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp from the great state of North Dakota, Founder of the One Country Project and co-host of the Hot Dish podcast. Love it. Welcome to the Rural Impact. I am thrilled to have you here.
Heidi Heitkamp: Well, I am so excited about doing this and the more news we can get out there good and bad or indifferent, the more important the you know, hopefully rural places will be to policy makers. So good on you.
Michelle Rathman: I love to hear you say that because, on this podcast, our goal is to connect the dots between policy and real everything and who better to have here than you. That really has your finger on the pulse of so many things. And so, I want to start off by saying first of all, kudos to the One Country 2024 Rural Progress Summit.
I mean, the lineup could not have been more inspiring, inspiring and empowering and informative. I just really appreciated it. I wasn't able to do all of the different sessions, but it was great to participate. But near the very end of the last day we're now kicking off a new series that's focused on the rural vote and it's specifically around policy, but you led a session called Decision 2024, the Presidential Campaign, Key Races and Issues to Watch and leading up to that discussion.
That summit was packed, as I said, full of discussions with key issues. So to start off our conversation let's talk about. This through the specific rural lens and the impact of policies that are they're linked to votersā€™ minds. We hear about kitchen table issues. I think that's an easy way out. I think there's a lot of things that we need to be talking about the kitchen table that we're not.
So, kind of go down that list of the issues that you think are really realistically at the top of the rural votersā€™ mind today.
Heidi Heitkamp: Well, I think first and foremost, it's the future of rural America and what does that look like? I think there's a lot of kind of emotional intelligence that's wrapped into that. You know, this sense of I'm not, you know, I'm not seen on the national scene. What I think doesn't matter on the national scene. You're not speaking to my concern.
So, I would say the first thing is respect. Respect for what we do in rural America is a huge voting issue. And the more I think, especially in my case, Democratic Party can talk about the contributions, talk about how critical and vital rural America is to the development of the entire country.
You know, give some props where props are due. And then beyond that, it's the stuff that everybody cares about. Number one, the Farm Bill. Agriculture is a huge part of that. But so is energy. Everybody forgets that energy is produced and distributed from rural America. For years it's been the number two industry.
I think now by GDP it might be the number one industry in North Dakota, given the growth of the Bakken. But I think energy and mineral extraction are huge economic issues. So, the Farm Bill, what does regulation on mineral extraction look like? What does the potential for increased regulation, environmental regulation?
But on the flip side, you know, climate opportunities, whether that's carbon credits that farmers can sell. So, the Farm Bill is always going to be important, but so are kind of ongoing discussions about conservation. And then we've got the uniqueness that is North Dakota, Minnesota, certainly the Great Plains, which is let's not leave behind Native American voters and what they're concerned about.
So then beyond that, it's kind of interesting, and I think that was the One Country Summit. We talked about housing. Housing affects rural America as much it affects urban America. Health care. I think a bigger crisis in health care is in in rural America. Daycare, the inability to find daycare and get workers who can help out immigration is critical in rural America.
And so, we can we could try and differentiate what people care about urban to rural, but what at the end of the day, quality of education, quality of health care, quality of housing and availability of daycare are issues that cut across the regional divides.
Michelle Rathman: Oh, my goodness, I'm nodding my head. It's going to like, off my shoulders because last week I was actually at a HRSA headquarters and I'm a part of a capital, Expanding Access to Capital Work Group, specifically around not just rural health, but of course, around the social determinants and housing came up over and over and over again, hand in hand with long term care and our long term care shortages that we have.
And of course, daycare, but I do want to take a look at the Farm Bill because I'm following it as well. And I think what's so interesting is for the folks I talked to that aren't rural centric, you know, not really understanding how much the Farm Bill impacts their own lives. No matter your zip code.
So, on Monday, June 11th the House Appropriations Committee, we're just recording a week after that release their proposed funding bill for 2025. I'm just going to read you a really quick package and the other side, I want to just ask you, because I know you had a really important interview at the Summit as well.
So, disproportionately, the House's proposed funding bill makes spending cuts cutting total funding by 3.6% from 2024 to every farm aid priority program. And this is a farm aid blog. It cuts SNAP funding and includes very harmful riders, unrelated policies tacked on to spending bill, among these riders are measures to eliminate protections for small meat and poultry producers against large companies, prohibit equity, diversity inclusion programs and allows individuals and organizations to discriminate against LBGTQIA+ plus on the basis of, and this is a quote, sincerely held religious beliefs.
So the bill passed, proposed bill passed along party lines. No surprise over the course of a very quick 30-minute vote and the bill will be brought to the white whole house for a vote in July. You had a conversation, as I understand, I wish I could have been in the room when that one happened about this at the Summit with, National Farmers Union President, Rob Larew, tell us about some of your takeaways from that conversation, knowing that these things were. They're coming to a head, if you will.
Heidi Heitkamp: I think it was more optimistic than what I thought it would be recognizing the package that you just read and whether that's going to make its way. Now, understand, came out on a straight party line vote. We talked about the necessity of Democrats voting for the Farm Bill because the Freedom Caucus, that are very you know, radical right leaning caucus has long opposed any kind of Farm Bill.
And so, you aren't going to get Jim Jeffords to support any Farm Bill, whether it includes those provisions or not. So, a Farm Bill has to be bipartisan, and you know, that's not the path forward. I'm more interested in what Senator Bozeman did last late last week in terms of introducing the Senate bill, comparing that to what Debbie Stabenow released on behalf of the Democratic Caucus in terms of her priorities for a Farm Bill.
But you look at this and you always say, how can you possibly bridge these divides? But on every Farm Bill we do. And so, it just seems to me that you know, there's a lot of lustering, a lot of, you know, we, we want to get our vote. And at the end of the day, it's pretty critical that we get a Farm Bill done.
Now, politically, it's interesting because every senator has a farmer in his or her state. So, you know, in, in the Senate, your constituency includes a farmer. That's not true for every representative. Now they all eat. And having food security and a healthy rural economy is critical to stability in this country.
So, I would argue Farm Bill's just as important for a member from, from Manhattan as it is a member from North Dakota. But with that said, most of rural America is represented right now by a member of Congress who is in fact a Republican. And so, the need to actually get certainty in a Farm Bill, politically is the expediency that they feel, I think, coming into this next election might be palatable.
And by that I mean, you know, it's not going to hurt someone from the, you know, the middle of the Twin Cities, whether you get a Farm Bill or not, but it may affect Michelle Fischbach. I mean, if she can't deliver a Farm Bill, or Kelly Armstrong can't deliver a Farm Bill in North Dakota.
That, that has political consequences. And as Debbie has said repeatedly to people who say, Oh, Stabenow wants to get a Farm Bill, it's her legacy piece. She said, the 18 Bill is my legacy. I'm pretty okay with what we did in 18. And if you're going to cut SNAP and some of the safety net programs, I'd rather just see an extension of the Farm Bill instead of a bill that might make it virtually impossible for to number one, pass the House, but also get it through the Senate.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, I also, I always want to help folks connect the dots between just nutritional assistance programs and, you know, the health and well, being of America's children, whether it is in rural or urban, it doesn't matter. And so, these are the things that we need to be talking about. So, there's maybe some hope for bipartisan rule policy where the Farm Bill is concerned.
Do you see any other areas where, where we could have some good movement in a bipartisan direction for other legislation that's going to be impacting rural communities. Is there anything that you can share with us on that front?
Heidi Heitkamp: You know, I think that as they look at the employment limitations as a result of lack of daycare, any bill that addresses housing is going to address rural housing. Any bill that addresses daycare and the need to number one, provide safe and secure daycare, but also affordable daycare is going to have some kind of a rural.
So, so there isn't a, a bill that would deal with the problems of America where I don't think you're going to see a rural component. And, you know, we did a lot of work on small community banks when I was there, making sure that they could continue to compete. And you know, so access to capital has always been a huge issue and taking a look at what, what kind of investment are large legacy, huge banks making in rural America?
What kind of investment are local banks making in America? What's the access to helping startup eco structure? I just went on the board of somebody called Emerging Prairie. And it really is to have that discussion about. What does technology mean to rural America? What does kind of that advanced manufacturing, advanced farming mean to rural America?
And I think more and more those kinds of organizations are going to come up with better and better ideas. But, you know, we have an expectation that if the federal government is going to invest in, let's say, CHIPS as a national security concern, some of that investment should find its way into rural America.
And you're seeing that both in CHIPS and in the Infrastructure Bill and certainly the IRA.
Michelle Rathman: This is so true. We just came off a, an episode where we talked about tech hubs built, building tech hubs in rural communities. So, I want to ask about your, you have your fingers in so many different pots, if you will. And, Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago. We've just come off a series talking about the importance of investing and supporting rural public sector apprenticeships and training.
How do you, how important do you see this is in terms of growing and strengthening rural civic engagement and how might this affect the future of policymaking?
Heidi Heitkamp: Yeah, I know two entrepreneurs who built their business in rural America. And if you ask them why, what their why they did it and what their biggest challenge is, it's the same answer. They did it because the workforce that they could find was, came ready to work, was willing to work kind of that first generation off the farm kind of knows how to get up in the morning and put on the boots and go to the milk milking barn.
You know, they found that the workforce there was superior to other places, but they also now see the difficulty in recruiting workforce. And that's why it's important to offer these apprenticeships. When I was in the Senate, there was a large regional electrical contractor. Came out of a very small town and I asked him, I said, how did you grow this ?
He said, I went to the high schools and I recruited kids, paid them really well in the summer, trained them really well in the summer. They got a taste of that work. They liked the work. They knew they could make a living and they could still live in their community. And he basically built a competitive regional business with homegrown talent.
And so those are the stories that I think will help drive the entrepreneurship and the small business opportunities in rural America. And so I think apprenticeship, I mean, he didn't get paid for those apprenticeships. He just did it out of necessity to grow his workforce, but it's just a great example of how that process can work really well.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, and how important it is and take that same model and grow interest in civic and public work, you know, the public sector, because I know we need to reinforce that as well.
You know, kind of wearing your, you know, your Senator hat when you were fielding all sorts of phone calls and emails and things of that nature.
I always ask anytime I have someone like yourself on, there is no one like you, but a policymaker. When it comes to bending your ear as a, as a representative, making sure that, you know, constituents know what issues are important. What is important for you as a policymaker wearing that hat for, for people out there to know about communicating their, their needs, their frustrations, their wants, so that people know that their efforts to connect with their policy makers are not wasted.
It's not for nothing.
Heidi Heitkamp: Well, I mean, first off, you got to do it. You gotta show up, and, you know, being from the state of North Dakota, I met with pretty much every North Dakotan who came to town and wanted to talk to me and then went home and did the same thing. And so, you know, take advantage of the fact that in small states, there is a culture that constituents are number one, and those constituent meetings are more important than some you know, some fancy, you know, head of Goldman Sachs, you're going to prioritize meeting a constituent.
And I think the other thing I would say is be a storyteller, talk about what it is that has happened to you or and not with, with the sense of anger or entitlement, but here's something that needs to be fixed. And can you help me? And then I'd say, always get to know the staff you know, make friends with the, with the L. A. who's in the room?
Don't just assume that you've now checked that box. I think you know, staff are critically important in terms of priorities. And, you know, I expected my staff after a meeting like that to stay in contact with the constituency group, find out, you know, let them know what was happening, what we're doing to try and fix the problem if we agreed that it's a problem that needed to be fixed.
I tell a cautionary story. I had a guy come into the office and recently purchased a bunch of fast food restaurants in North Dakota and I asked him, I said, what's your biggest issue? And he said, well, the government. I said, okay, what about the government? And he just kept saying the government, the government, the government. And, and finally I said to him, I said, well, you know, how much you pay your workers? And he got a little upset and he said, $10 an hour. I said, really? You do know that for a full-time worker, that's about $20,000 a year.
And a worker who's working full time at $20, 000 a year qualifies for food stamps, qualifies for housing assistance, qualifies for healthcare assistance. So, isn't it true the government's kind of subsidizing your business? He got insulted, but, but that just, I mean, just understand that not that you have to agree with the political position of, of a member, but don't come with, with ideology.
Come with a problem, come with an idea, come with a story about what's going on. If you had come with a story and said, look, you know, we, we you know, we don't have the kind of opportunity to have access to students that we used to, and, you know, so we want to grow our business doing X, Y, and Z.
Can you help me? And, you know, that's, that's a whole different discussion than the government, right?
Michelle Rathman: hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. It, it makes us do our homework and really identify when folks, you know, they say, Oh, you talk about politics. I said, no, I'm interested in policy. So, if you tell me you would like someone's policy, I just want to know what policy that is that you like, and let's have a conversation about it.
This is a really interesting question because, I mean, in all of your experience, I would imagine, like most of us, we could never have imagined that social media would be such an incredibly overpowering kind of, you know, channel, if you will, for where people get their information about policy and they formulate their positions based on what they're hearing and what they're seeing, which is creating a feeling.
I talked about this when I did your, your Summit. People make their decisions based on emotional and if it's, if you're not really understanding the policy behind it. So how, what advice do you have if, if any, that you can offer to help people expand their palate, if you will, for information as they're making this these incredibly important decisions about the policy makers who will basically impact their lives.
Heidi Heitkamp: Well, the one thing I would say is find trusted sources. And, you know, like every good college professor, look for primary sources. Don't, don't see things through a lens. You know, if, if I want to understand a complicated healthcare issue, I go to the Kaiser Family Foundation website. I think it's absolutely a trusted resource.
Do, do they have policy positions that people may not support? You know, they've been particularly I wouldn't say advocacy oriented, but they basically show the benefits of the ACA, of Obamacare, over time. And, and so you don't want to, if you don't want to believe that, then argue with them, because they've got the numbers.
The Fed you know, depending upon, especially FRED, out of St. Louis, has great economic data. You don't have to rely on, you know, what Bloomberg says about it or what, you know, Fox business says about it. Go look it up on your own. You know, the USDA, you may say, well, they're not a reliable source, but they've got a lot of raw data on, on rural conditions that is really, really important.
And so what I would say is the other inclination when I was attorney general, I did consumer protection and we would tell people if it seemed too good to be true, probably isn't. If whatever you're reading is too bizarre to be believed. It probably isn't true.
And so, the one thing I would say to and not to dismiss the prevalence and the importance of social media, but you know, there used to be listservs with emails that went all around that would dispel, you know, information that people would forward. And so, we've been in that ecosystem for a long time, quite honestly. The ecosystem of having a rapid way, instead of sending a letter to 20 of your friends, you know, sending an email that passes along misinformation like, oh, you know, when, when Heidi Heitkamp retires from the Senate, she gets her Senate salary for life.
That's never been true, you know, but people believe it because it's said over and over again, or she gets health care for life. That's not true. And so, I would say, you know, there's plenty of sources. Unfortunately, now everybody is in a confirmation bias. I want to believe that's true. So I'm not going to look up the real information.
But I'd say, you know, look for primary sources that you can rely on.
Michelle Rathman: And, we're going to put those up on our resource page because I think it's important. And, you know, people will formulate their own opinion about whether or not we're trustworthy, but truly, you know, I agree. I agree with you. And white papers are really, you know, they may seem boring, but they do have a lot of good data inside of them.
Heidi Heitkamp: Well, and the other thing I want to say is the Congressional Research Service used to be that all of that writing and research that they did was not available to the public. You could kind of find it, but now it's wide open. That is invaluable. These are nonpartisan folks who write about what this legislation would do.
They aren't, you know, feeding you a, they aren't lying. This is, this is really good information. So check out CRS.
Michelle Rathman: Okay. We'll put that one up there too. Okay. Last question I have for you. I, I have had folks, I kind of said earlier that say, you know, why I, I no longer live in rural. I live seven miles from the nearest rural border, but I'm here because of my husband's work and where we are, but they asked me, you know, why should rural matter to me?
And I don't live in rural. So how, how do you answer those folks if they're not seeing the important policy decisions being made impacting them as well as rural? Why should rural matter to everybody out here?
Heidi Heitkamp: Because it's a huge component of our GDP. It, it, you know, it is part of the fabric of America. You know, if you're, if you think that you could ignore 80 percent of the landmass, if you're concerned about climate. 91 percent of all the land in North Dakota is engaged in production agriculture. If you're concerned about renewable energy, hmm. Guess what? Rural communities are the ones who are deciding what that looks like going forward. These are not, you're not putting wind towers all through the city of Chicago, you're putting them in rural America. You're putting solar panels in rural America. And so, I would argue, there's nothing that you do every day, including particularly eating that doesn't affect rural America, and you need to pay attention. Plus, it is playing an outsized role in our politics. You know, there's this idea that I can just ignore that, this, you know, to speak just candidly about the Democratic Party. When the Democratic Party started losing rural America at 70/30, they started having a really hard time being a majority party.
And so, you know, be concerned about rural America politically. And then I'd say be careful about generalizations. By that I mean, every person in America, in rural America, is not enraged. They're pretty happy with their life. They are concerned about the direction of the country, but so is everybody else in America.
And so don't generalize who we are in rural America. We tend to be more diverse, more thoughtful less afraid of the other by that. I mean, the other yeah, less afraid of the other than what people
Michelle Rathman: Yes, you know, and listen to podcasts like Heidi's and other rural, because if you were curious, get rural curious. I think that's a, I mean, just, just don't go there for vacation. Really understand, you know, how their economies work. It's very complex. So much more complex than people would imagine. But, oh, my goodness, Senator Heitkamp, I could talk to you all day.
And if I was near you, I would buy you a cup of coffee
Heidi Heitkamp: I would like that.
Michelle Rathman: We would have a danish it has been an honor to have you here. And again, if you've not subscribed to the Hot Dish Podcast, go out and do that today. And while you're at it, check your voter registration. I do remind you of that from time to time.
So again, you're welcome anytime to join us. Thank you so
Heidi Heitkamp: Thanks so much, Michelle, and keep up your good work. The more of us who are talking about rural America and the more we can tell stories that are engaging and kind of give people a flavor, I think the more people will feel connected.
Michelle Rathman: Indeed. Oh, my goodness. So a quick thank you to our Associate Producer, Brea Corsaro. Always so grateful for her hard work, our creative and technical guru, Sarah Staub. Until next time, when we meet again for a new episode of The Rural Impact, take good care of yourself and everyone else around you.
