Episode 40 Expanding Scope and Increasing Hope – The Transformative Role of Community Colleges Episode
Michelle Rathman: Hello, and welcome back to a brand-new episode of the Rural Impact. You know, we are the podcast that works hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything. I'm Michelle Rathman, and I do mean it when I say thank you so much for carving out time in your very busy schedule to a listen to another conversation again that we hope connects some dots for you where rural is concerned.
Before we dive into today's episode, I want to send two special shout outs. The first is to the National Rural Broadband Association. I thank them for inviting me to join them in Indianapolis at their annual meeting where I had the opportunity to make the connection between their work, rural broadband, and rural health outcomes.
It was really a special privilege for me to be able to do that. I think so often we don't think about those two going hand in hand. But I cannot imagine going backwards, and where rural communities don't have connectivity to take full advantage of advancements in telehealth and telemedicine. So again, thank you for that.
I also want to send a very special thank you to my friends at the Oregon Office of Rural Health. I've just returned from Bend, where I have great memories, a little bit of a head cold, but more than that, super excited to share with you that on National Rural Health Day this year, which is always the third Thursday of November, you're going to have an opportunity to listen to a panel discussion that I moderated, where we talked about the social drivers of health and how policy fuels investments to address those in the areas of food and nutrition services, housing, as well as access to all sorts of health care services in rural America. Stay tuned for that conversation. I promise you, you won't regret it. So again, set your calendar for the third Thursday in November this year, and you're going to hear that panel discussion.
But today we have another packed episode. And for that, I want to thank our partners at Ascendium Education Group for making it possible. Their support has just been, we're so grateful for it because we've been able to bring you some conversations that we would not otherwise be able to do without the support that they provide to us.
And today we are continuing our conversation about opportunity. And the opportunity I'm talking about is focused on rural serving institutions, specifically community colleges, and their ability to offer adult learners an education that results in the attainment of their bachelor's degree, and how this is directly connected to both policy and labor market outcomes. Really a fascinating conversation.
To help expand the lens on this. Cause I'm not the expert. I've invited three experts to spell it all out. And first up, I'm really eager to have you hear my conversation with Ivy Love, Senior Advisor, and Tiffany Tai, a Senior Program Associate, both of them with the Center on Education and Labor at New America.
And then following that conversation we have a conversation with someone I've had the opportunity to speak with before. It never gets old because he is so enthusiastic about his work and super informed. And he is Dr. Andrew Koricich. Andrew is the Executive Director of the Alliance for Research on Regional Colleges and Associate Professor of Higher Education at Appalachian State University.
Okay. With all that said, I say it often, these are not light subjects, but again, we hope that by the end of this episode, you've been enlightened and inspired to maybe explore and get curious. And that's something that I, I really remind the audiences that I speak to. We make positive change when we get curious about what could be possible.
So, with that, I invite you to sit back, put yourself on that podcast frame of mind and listen to my conversation with Ivy Love, Tiffany Thai and Dr. Andrew Koricich. Are you ready? I sure am. So let's go.
-----
Michelle Rathman: Hey, Ivy Love, Senior Policy Analyst, and Tiffany Tai, Senior Program Associate in the Center on Education and Labor at New America. Thank you both for joining us on the Rural Impact today. We're so glad to have you with us.
Ivy Love: Thanks so much, Michelle.
Tiffany Thai: Good morning. Thanks for having us.
Michelle Rathman: We have a really important conversation that we're going to have here today. I've already kind of teed up for our guests what we're going to be talking about, but I, I think what's really important for us to focus our attention on right now is that we have so many spaces in rural America where post-secondary education attainment is very challenging. And you both do a great deal of research on that. So, in May of this year, you authored a brief titled, "Community College Bachelor's Degrees in Florida - An Update on Enrollment and Labor Market Outcomes." There are so many, in my view, fascinating data points in this piece, but first, let's start the conversation by asking why.
Why this subject and how it's connected to both rural and policy because we are all about connecting those dots between policy and rural quality of life. Ivy, why don't you go ahead and start us off?
Ivy Love: I have many thoughts about the rural angle here. Would it be okay? Tiffany has a great perspective on sort of the why of the policy piece. Can we maybe start with her? And then I am happy to jump in if that works for you.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. Tiffany, go right ahead.
Tiffany Thai: Yeah, so just to start it off, we can frame it off in terms of, like, the policy side. So first off, community college baccalaureates or CCBs are four-year degrees directly conferred by community colleges, given the increasing demand for bachelor's degrees, and just evolving job requirements in the labor market. CCBs are normally four-year programs that are workforce oriented. In Florida, some of the most common programs we saw were in education, business, computer science, and nursing, for example. And so, since West Virginia became the first state to authorize its community colleges to confer bachelor's degrees more than three decades ago, CCBs have expanded to 24 states in a pretty short period of time. And so, community colleges are basically becoming a very key access point to bachelor's degrees for many students. And this is especially true for populations that have been underserved in four-year institutions in general.
Community colleges are more likely to enroll a larger share of students of color, students of lower income families, adult and working learners. And so, we saw this in our Florida brief where a lot of graduates were students of color and more than half of CCB graduates were over the age of 30. And so, I think the policy question for Ivy and I became “what is the role of community colleges in increasing bachelor's degree attainment and preparing graduates for well-paying jobs, especially in fields that are in high demand locally or regionally?” And Ivy can talk about the rural aspect of that.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. Please do Ivy.
Ivy Love: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a couple of things we're holding in mind while we're thinking about the rural, the rural angle here. So we know that rural bachelor's attainment rates lag behind peers and suburban and urban areas where just over 20 percent of rural Americans of working age hold a bachelor's degree compared to 36 percent in more urbanized areas.
So that's, that's a considerable gap. And we also know that most undergraduate students stay generally within 25 miles of home around two-thirds of undergrads stay close to home to go to school. And so, for some, depending on where they live, the community college may be the only local public access for post-secondary education for them.
And so that community college may be particularly well positioned to offer the bachelor's degrees that people in the community are interested in that are needed for key careers and professions in the community for local economic development. So, given all of those pieces together, we've been really interested to explore.
When and why, and sometimes why not, a community college may want to offer a bachelor's program, what area of study they're interested in and why, and what challenges they expected or experienced along the way trying to get that moving.
Michelle Rathman: You know, Tiffany, you mentioned about how, how things have come along in a relatively short period of time, but it wasn't really until recently that I learned that there actually has been some resistance to expanding these programs. So, what are some of the pain points that you can talk to us about, either one of you, for the institutions and how that kind of plays itself out and the resistance, you know, 24 is the, I think there's a number, 24 is good. But we have 50 states. So, what is some of the resistance? Talk to us about that.
Tiffany Thai: Yeah, so I can kick us off. So, over the past few decades, like I said, 24 states have authorized CCBs within their community colleges. And so also within these states, we've also seen a lot of different areas are now being like covered like by CCB approval. But at the same time, CCBs have not avoided criticisms of mission creep and program duplication with four-year colleges and universities in particular. And we are seeing this play out in California right now, where the state university system is opposing a bill that would expand nursing degrees to their community colleges just because the university system is already offering them. And so, in some contexts, you know, maybe the need for a bachelor's degree is already being met by another institution that already has a strong presence in the community.
So, if a program is already accessible for adult learners, low-income learners, and working learners, it might not be worth pursuing for that individual community. And so, there are also situations where the community college is the best option to offer a bachelor's degree, but then there are also a lot of challenges in developing, launching and sustaining a bachelor's degree.
And so, this is especially important for rural serving institutions. Startup costs can be a major pain point. It's expensive to undergo an accreditation change, hire new faculty or fund continuing education for current faculty. And so, for smaller colleges, there's also, you know, concerns about sustainable enrollment and sustainable workforce needs once a program actually launches.
And so, colleges ultimately have to, you know, provide the tuition, have enough students to provide the tuition and state support to maintain a program. And so, there are a lot of challenges in making sure that not only can they launch a program, but also sustain it as well.
Michelle Rathman: That's a really good point because in my head I was thinking the enrollment, so many moons and stars have to align, it seems to make this work.
And, with that again, for either one of you, there, there's a lot of influence and implications with state policies. And these are things I think that so many of our listeners just don't know.
I mean, I live in Illinois, and we have state colleges and I know that there's a lot of competitive, there's, it's very competitive because funding has to be there as well. So, talk to us about the influence from your research or implications of state policies on funding and supports that help to sustain these programs.
Ivy Love: Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. And something that I might add on the sort of what are the pain points piece. I think there's a sense among universities sometimes that if a community college is authorized to offer bachelor's degrees, they're just going to go completely wild and start whatever program they want, whenever they want, and that they are competing for the same student.
That may be true some of the time, but I think we need to remember going kind of back to the beginning that staying close to home is really important. Adult working learners generally want programs that are really connected to either their current or aspirational occupation. And so, this may not completely quell university's fears, but as Tiffany pointed out, more than half of the students in our Florida brief are 30 or over.
They're not fresh out of high school. They are looking for programs that are locally available, relevant to their work, accessible, and affordable. And so, I think that they are competing for other students. This is about growing the pie, not necessarily a zero-sum fight for a handful of students. And these programs tend to not be that big anyways.
There are some exceptions, but generally they're fairly small. So even if they are coexisting to try to expand the capacity of a local area to offer a particular bachelor's degree. There's room for all of us here. In terms of the funding piece our deputy, our director for community college, Iris Palmer and I published a brief a couple of years ago, looking at 10 states that have at least a handful of these programs and how their states approach funding them.
And there's just such a wide variety. I'll give an example of, of how tuition can vary from one state to another. In Texas now, with a few exceptions, they have to keep tuition level between the first two years and the last two years of a bachelor's degree between the associate degree level classes and the kind of junior senior bachelor's level courses.
That's simple for students to understand, that's great, but if it costs more to do the last two years for faculty reasons or labs, that the college will have to figure out a way to deal with that. And then in Washington, they have to charge more for the upper division courses, because there was this concern that if they were cheaper, they'd be undercutting the public universities.
So, the way the state solves that was, well, you have to charge the same as the average of regional publics in the state. So, really different approaches to this. In terms of formula fundings, or sort of calculations at the state level of resources that would go to a college. I'll give the example of Nevada; colleges do get a little more funding for a student that completes an upper division course.
And then there's California that has a very small part of their performance funding. So, resources that universities get when a student makes some level of achievement.
They'll get a little bit more if a student gets an associate degree designed to help them transfer to a university, than a student who gets a bachelor's degree.
So, there is, it's small, it's not a make or break, but it is just a little. Signal about what community colleges are incentivized to do. So, wild differences. I will just real quickly touch on one thing that Tiffany mentioned. The startup costs of these programs can be fairly substantial, and especially for, you know, not all rural serving colleges are small, but for those that are, that's a big, it's a risk.
It's something they need to take into account. A few states started their bachelor's programs with a pilot. Texas and California specifically. So, you've got just a handful of colleges allowed to do a bachelor's program to kind of test the water, see how it goes. And they got startup resources from the state, each of them to help them manage those initial hurdles of substantive accreditation change, maybe hiring new faculty, additional facilities, etc.
No state has sustained that though, of the ones that have started it, it hasn't stuck around. And so now that's on the institution to figure out how they're going to meet that big upfront cost. They may be able to see down the line, we see there's a huge need, we see there's huge student interest, but you've got to get over the first hurdle first.
So, state funding has state startup funding has come into play in some states, but only in a pilot capacity. It's never been sustained.
Michelle Rathman: My, my head always just goes to policy and I just think about the rooms where these discussions are happening and the fact that there is such a lack of what I'm hearing you both say such a lack of consistency and there is no one model.
And it is all depends on who are making these decisions and so many elements of the landscape of that state. Let's talk about something that I think can't be lost in the conversation. And that's the impact of these programs on, as you said, Tiffany, the great percentage of those who take advantage of these programs are over 30, they're adults, presumably many with children, families, jobs and things of that nature.
So, what have you seen in your research in terms of, you know, when I hear it's not good for the institution or it's not good for the policymakers, but the end of the day, isn't it about our ability to enrich the lives of, of those who then become even more contributors to their respective society. So, let's talk about the adult learners and the benefits to them.
And maybe that can help us policymakers listening, understand that go the extra mile and figure it out.
Ivy Love: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the dream for us to focus on what makes sense for people with roots in their community who want to stay and want to expand their education. This is, this is the ideal. What we know about adult learners and what does, what helps them while they're pursuing and making their way through higher education is flexibility, flexible schedules, consideration of them as working adults.
Affordability, while they are, as you mentioned, many are parents, most are working and programming, again, that is really relevant to what they're wanting to do in their career, in their profession. And the accessibility piece, geographic accessibility is huge. And so, if we're talking about rural adult learners with deep roots in their community, telling them they need to move is, it's not going to happen.
They're just not going to do the bachelor's degree. There may be an online option, but like, I hope your broadband is good. That depends on where you are. So, the geographic piece is so huge for this, and so huge for rural working learners.
I'm going to give another California example, that a couple of years ago, Feather River College in Northern California was proposing a program in sort of fire management, and there was a 4-year institution a couple hundred miles away, proposing something very similar at the same time. And, there was a lot of conflict about, “can we have these two programs,” because at that time, I mean, California institutions didn't have to just consider whether their program would be duplicative in the local area, but actually the whole state.
So, if you're on the Oregon border, and you want to do a program, and somebody in LA wants to do the same one, that was considered conflict.
So, yes, 100 percent I was just, I'm never convinced that, like, you're fighting for the same student.
Michelle Rathman: Have you driven 200 miles across rural America? I mean,
Ivy Love: Yeah. They're not the students close to Feather River are not going to move hundreds of miles away with their families to go do this other program.
And it seems like this particular area of study is very crucial for the well-being of Californian. And so, it seems like two programs would be okay.
And finally, that program did get approved and is moving forward at the community college, but it was so long and drawn out. And so, I think what's missing from that is this understanding of a college student may be mobile, may want to move away. And that's a great, that's a great option for students for whom that is possible and what they really want. And also, a college student can be a 30-year-old mom who is not moving from her rural community. They are all college students. And so having this available for rural learners who have jobs and have families is so critical.
If it's the only option in their community, and they're not allowed to do it. They're just not going to get the degree. That's what they're choosing between. I'm going to give you another funny policy example that affects adults but isn't just limited to adults.
So, in Texas, community colleges service areas. I'm for people who are just listening. I'm making like a big circle with my hands. They're this big. And then the taxing district, I'm making a smaller circle is smaller. Right? So, in Texas, the education code says that community colleges who want to do a bachelor's degree must have at least $6 billion dollars of taxable property in their taxing district.
Michelle Rathman: Six billion.
Ivy Love: Yeah, which most colleges meet that threshold if they want to do most bachelor's degrees. If you want to do a nursing completion degree, you only have to have 4 billion of taxable property value the year before. 100 percent of the community colleges in Texas that don't meet the four billion threshold are rural serving.
Using the rural serving institution indicator that Andrew's going to talk to you about in a minute. Which is usually what we use in our research to identify these institutions, and all but one community college that don't meet the six billion threshold are all rural serving. So, who is being left out here?
And, you know, maybe these institutions, maybe there's not a need in their community for a program at this time. That's fine. Everybody doesn't have to do this right now. If there's not a need, don't worry about it. It just doesn't seem fair that they don't even get to assess the need and figure it out and make a case for themselves and try.
Because there's not enough wealth in the community.
Michelle Rathman: It's interesting, I think about what we do in health care with needs assessment, and just fascinating how those two potentially could track.
All right, we got a few minutes left and I want to kind of get into, we talked about the benefits to the institutions. We talked about the benefits for the learners. We talk, you know, every single week we sit here and wait for the jobs report, and we wait to hear about, you know, job rates and things of that nature. So somewhere in this equation, we know that employers are benefiting mightily from having a prepared and not just, you know, workforce in kind of the workhorse kind of analogy.
But highly, a higher education workforce. What are the highlights that you can share with us about the promise that these programs offer to fill workforce shortages with those skilled workers that have gone that extra mile and attain their post-secondary education?
Tiffany Thai: Yeah, so having employers at the table is essential for the success of these programs. And so most states actually have an approval process for CCB programs that require establishing labor market demand. And so, colleges proposing a program have to establish that need through labor market data and will want to engage with relevant employers in the community ahead of time and after ask them to offer their support through a letter, usually along with their program proposal. And so, it's crucial that local employers are on board.
When programs were first introduced in Florida, they were specifically designed to address regional workforce shortages in key fields like teaching and nursing. And so, this is important because of the grow your own theory, which is the strategy that supporting local students with community roots to enter these education and health professions can help address labor shortages and increase diversity in the workforce. And so, we see in Florida, a lot of these most popular and widely enrolled in programs are in these applied fields. And so, for allied health fields and teacher programs, this partnership becomes even more critical when employers also have to offer work-based learning opportunities, such as clinical placements or student teaching.
As these hands-on experiences are absolutely vital for these programs to work and for these students to gain access to meaningful employment, even after they graduate. And so overall, developing a bachelor's program should be a collaborative effort between community colleges and local employers in order to create, you know, a pathway that leads not only to degrees, but also to eventually employment in high demand good paying careers.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, all right. So, our last question is we always do before we take a break here. I would like for you to just provide us with a little bit of insight because of your research. What advice do you have for our listeners who want to advocate? We have a lot of professionals, you know, and of course, the field that I work in, you know, we advocate, we kind of stay in our own lane, but I think this one crosses so many.
What can you say would be a good way to advocate for increasing access, resources, sound policy that brings these important programs to community colleges? What can you say to our listeners if they could you know, think about what they would share with their own policymakers about why this is important?
Ivy Love: Yeah, maybe I'll start. So, the community college bachelor's degree is, it's not a silver bullet. It's not going to fix all the issues of access and equity for rural adult learners, and it should be part one of many strategies that take states can take to increase access and equity for these
You know, our work has identified plenty of reasons why a rural community college might not want to offer a bachelor's degree, and some completely valid reasons why that's not something they want to do either right now or in the future.
You know, maybe another college is doing a great job of meeting those needs. Maybe there's a need in the community, but there's not enough to stand up a whole program. That's fine. I don't want to say that everybody should be doing this right now. There are plenty of good reasons not to, but what's not a good reason is arbitrary state policy about which colleges can do what, based simply on the way things have always been done, and perceptions about what community colleges can offer, and what they can offer well.
That's not a good reason.
So, if a community college has identified a need and they're willing and able to meet that need and they're the best position institution to meet that need, And the only thing standing in their way is a state rule we have a problem. And there are other states that have gone before.
There are great examples to follow. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy thing to do. There's usually a little bit of resistance, but this has been done. It's become normalized and it's become part of so many state strategies to serve a variety of learners, including rural learners.
Michelle Rathman: Excellent. Oh, my gosh. To both of you. Thank you so much for your great insight. It has been very enlightening for me. And I know this conversation is going to continue and we look forward to watching your research. And I, we will make sure that we put up your research and the great work that you're doing there on our website. Thank you both for joining us today.
Ivy Love: Thank you so much, Michelle. This is really wonderful.
Michelle Rathman: Okay, friends, don't you go anywhere because, you know, we are going to continue this conversation. And up next, we are joined by Dr. Andrew Koricich, and he is the Executive Director, Alliance for Research on Regional Colleges and Professor at Appalachian State University. But first, here's an important message from our partners at Ascendium Education Group.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
-----
Michelle Rathman: Okay, we are back and now I am thrilled to have Andrew Koricich, Executive Director of the Alliance for Research on Regional Colleges and Professor for Appalachian State University join me here on the Rural Impact Studio. It's been a while, Andrew, but oh my gosh, I am so glad to see you and have you with us.
Andrew Koricich: Thank you, Michelle. It's good to see you again.
Michelle Rathman: My gosh, like we're old buddies. All right, just before the break, Andrew, we had a conversation about the challenges and benefits of pursuing bachelor's programs at rural serving community colleges focused really mainly on the benefits to students and communities. And there are plenty of those, but what I really wanted to talk to you about, Andrew, because this is your wheelhouse are the benefits. And that is from both an institution perspective and a policymaker’s perspective.
Why are CCBs, as they're called, programs important for community colleges? And with that, why do policymakers, why, why should they care about this? Why should this be a subject on their radar screen?
Andrew Koricich: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the big benefits for institutions is we have seen, especially since the beginning of the pandemic, that there have been huge enrollment drops in community colleges across the country, but these are really acute, especially in a lot of rural areas. And so, these are ways to offer new credentials that for institutions can help shore up enrollments and finances and things like that.
While also building closer relationships with employers in their communities and things like that as well. And so, there's sort of this benefit from a financial organizational standpoint, but there's also this benefit from a town and gown kind of perspective where they're really tying into the industry needs in their communities and, and really where the labor needs are and opportunities for community residents.
And I think that's also where the benefit is for policymakers. You know, I think regardless of partisan control in states, state legislatures want workforces, right? They want workforces that are skilled for the businesses and industries they want to attract and maintain. And there is some kind of training that is needed after high school for most of that. But a four-year university is sometimes not feasible for everyone in rural areas. There might not be one close
Michelle Rathman: Increasingly not feasible for everyone. And, and Andrew, we're also not just talking about the traditional pathway, you know, grade school, middle school, high school, community college, because we're also talking about adults. Who have a dream to pursue something other than what they maybe were forced or fell into or just had to do, you know, because it was required to work and earn money.
So, it impacts that community as well. Does it not?
Andrew Koricich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and there's this whole reskilling that becomes available in these communities. And, and we're not talking about really super high skill industries. We're talking really a lot in the middle skill kind of area that, that we did a lot of employers are needing, but we don't always have programs that are preparing folks.
And I think especially we hear a lot about, demographic changes, shrinking high school cohorts, and it's going to be really hard for colleges. But I think there's, there's a little bit of a red herring to that, right? Because not every adult who could benefit from a post-secondary credential has one.
And until they do, there are plenty of students for us to serve. We just have to think really differently about what they want and what they need to be successful.
Michelle Rathman: And that includes community colleges that are prepared. And so, I know in some of the communities I work in their community colleges, you know, like their hospitals, they're like this stellar anchor in the community, large employers and so forth. But we're seeing more and more of our rural post-secondary serving institutions suffer some blows and there are some vulnerabilities there, such as capacity and funding, local involvement, community support, things like that nature.
Kind of go off your tick sheet for us and tell us some of the things that you're seeing at your level.
Andrew Koricich: Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that is, is really challenging is the financial constraints because we want colleges to innovate, but innovation isn't free. It's not something that can just happen. It usually means we're pulling people away from other jobs and we have to bring in other folks. We need resources or training or other things to help with that.
And I think, you know, community colleges in particular can be really vulnerable to extremely lean funding while also being told we have, they have to evolve to the ever-evolving community needs. And it's, and it's really hard to do that unless you have a lot of external support for that. And I think, you know, part of that external support becomes complicated whenever higher ed has become a politically contentious issue.
You know, higher ed's always had a political aspect to it for its entire existence in our country, but it's in the last, you know, decade, two decades where we've really seen stark lines drawn about, you know, even rhetoric around it being corrosive to society. And I think it's really hard for rural community colleges to exist in a space where they may not always be getting the political support they need from their community, their local boards, as well as their state legislators.
Michelle Rathman: You know, Andrew, we're recording this. I'll remind our audience, maybe we do record a little bit in advance, and we're recording this on the 29th of August. And you know, this is, I'm going to kind of go off script here, Andrew, because we are at a time right now where education truly is, I mean, it has become politicized even at the, you know, certainly we see it at the elementary school and high school level. You know, as we're talking about increasing capacity for young adults and adults who want to pursue post-secondary education, where do you think the correlation is between kind of the erosion or the attempts to chip away at the legitimacy of education and how that might impact our rural serving institutions down the road?
I'm curious about that.
Andrew Koricich: There's almost this thing where it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After a while, right? That if we spend a lot of time vilifying what these colleges are doing and sort of corroding their value, by also may not funding them, so they are not more expensive. You know, I think those that becomes a really challenging proposition for colleges to have to then convince students that there that is a worthwhile investment of their time and of their money, when all you're hearing around you is skepticism. This it's not worth it. You know, student debt cancellation, all of these things.
And I think we can't ignore that sort of this pervasive narrative is affecting whether people think college is for them much earlier than the time they decide. Like whenever you're hearing it through your teenage years, you can't have somebody reach you in your junior year and just suddenly convince you that college is worth it if you've been hearing that it's not.
Michelle Rathman: Wow. That is so interesting. We plant those seed thoughts that grow, and they could either flourish or become like those, you know, those weeds. Hear us in our, in our new little, our home when we moved in had eight-foot weeds growing, you know, and that's kind of my analogy.
All right. So now let's shift the conversation to the positive part because despite all of that, what I find, what I marvel, and this is truly kind of the power of rural if you will, is that there is, there are so many examples of, we talk about capacity building, regional collaboration that helps to increase that capacity to expand those CCB programs in response to those workforce needs at the same time, providing rural learners with options for careers that they dream about, versus just responding to labor demands. Which is, you know, kind of this kind of silos that we work in. So, talk to us about the power of collaboration and what you're seeing out there to help kind of connect all these dots and create opportunities for all parties involved.
Andrew Koricich: Yeah. I think, you know, one thing I want to make sure we also talk about with this is because sometimes with the community college baccalaureate, you get a lot of pushback of, well, what happens to the four year universities in the area? And aren't we just putting, you know, more bachelor's programs and can they all be viable?
The community college bachelor's degree movement isn't about community colleges with 100 bachelor's degree majors. It really is really focused kinds of degrees, and typically they're not going to offer a bachelor's degree if you have a public college 10 miles away that's offering that same degree.
This is really about a landscape of what is needed and what's available and where those things are. And saying, for states, it is, it is much more cost effective to allow conferral of really targeted, focused bachelor's degree programs at community colleges, than to build a new four-year college, public college in that area.
And so, I think there's this piece of, first of all, these don't have to be things that exist in opposition to each other. They are different fields at the four-year level and at the two, at the community college level that are, that are doing these, but I think, as part of that, it really is the collaboration with the community to understand “what are our current workforce deficits?” Where do we really need a lot of people, where do we see short-term future, our needs are going to be? But also trying to build a collaboration and in a collaborative spirit where you're also able to think about.
How do we prepare for careers that we don't even know we need yet? Because I think, you know, it's also really easy in the workforce and part to just look at what's available now and put programs for that and not realizing that one of the things that's great about liberal arts and humanities, is it does allow people to be prepared for when things change very drastically from what they've been trained to do.
And, and so I think these collaborations work best when they're flexible. And, you know, a state like Washington state is been doing really great work in this. They're one of two states in the country where all of their community colleges are authorized to be offering baccalaureate degrees and especially thinking in the rural settings.
One that I think is really interesting is Yakima Valley College, right in the central part of the state, you know, they have multiple bachelors of applied science programs in agricultural science, in business management, in dental hygiene, IT networking, and system administration, and P-8 teacher education.
And as you think about those things, you're like, yeah, you could see, like, these are things these communities need and that they're really hard to recruit people out of right like dental health care, all of those kinds of things. And then you go to the coast.
And I think I believe it's Gray Harbor College. They have a bachelor's degree in forestry and natural resource management. And that makes sense. Whenever you think about it, basically a rainforest on the Washington coast. And so, I think that's the key is it's not about saying these are the programs community colleges should offer bachelors in and not, it's about what does the region need and what is the constellation of places to meet that need? And, sometimes that constellation is one star and it's the rural community college.
Michelle Rathman: Makes me think about an interview that we did about good jobs and what you're sharing. I mean, though, everything that you just listed, those are, would be considered good jobs and good jobs, you know, because they are, they are not just because of the money and the benefits that they afford, but it truly would be something that I would imagine someone growing up in the region, you know, having that being their surroundings and being familiar and then being able to earn a degree and pursue a career and, in place.
Andrew Koricich: Yes. And if I may, one other thing that I think is really interesting when you look across even like Washington's colleges and even other states community colleges that are doing this, you'll also see programs that are bachelors in applied management. And these are ones, one that I was telling, I wish I could remember the name of the college off the top of my head, but it's basically, it's two years of advanced study in project management, accounting, human resources, all of these things that you can add on top of any associates degree.
And so, if you have an associate's degree, that's an electrical technology to be an electrician, you can add two years on in a bachelor of applied management. And, and I think this is one of the things that we lose when we talk about the trades is there is still a part in the trade career progression where you may need those advanced skills and knowledge to manage trade operations, manage construction sites.
And, and so being able to have just this applied management degree that can be attached on to trade associates degrees is also really important and recognizes that trades need trained managers as well.
Michelle Rathman: That is an excellent point because when you think about this, I'm going to process this in real time. When you think about that, so often people are kind of promoted within an organization because they have, they've been on the bench, they understand, but they don't have the skills and the training and the development around managing people, one of the hardest jobs in the world.
So that should be extremely appealing to employers, I would imagine.
Andrew Koricich: Yeah. Yeah. And if you talk to folks, one of my art colleagues her partner was a trained electrician and now he's in sort of management and he identifies like, this is like our hardest labor need is taking folks who are electricians and getting them ready to take over management and site operations and things.
And, and so I think there, that is that missing piece in the trade conversation is as you progress in that, there's still something else you might need.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, it's a launch pad. It's true truly is. All right. So, lastly, I, you know, because we do as we do on this podcast, I want to look at focus on policy. Looking ahead, Andrew, I wonder if you could kind of pull out your crystal ball and what are some of the policies that state and otherwise, what do you see impacting the success of these programs?
What do, what do we need to be advocating for to strengthen and support those who want to achieve that degree right there in their own community college, which is might be unattainable at the moment for whatever reason.
Andrew Koricich: I think one of the first things that is really important is we have to stop legislating for rural people and start legislating with rural people.
That, you know, we, and I've been thinking about this a lot as my team has done dip their toe into some public opinion work and things that like we come up with policies in our state houses and things, but, we're probably not in the communities sitting in focus groups asking people, “what do you want and need and what didn't work that we shouldn't try again, or we should try it really different than we did?”
And so, I think a really fundamental part of this is not just using quantitative data, on workforce and all of these other things to determine what those needs are. Some of it is giving rural folks agency and let them tell you what they know. They know what they need. They know what they don't want. And, and they know what opportunities they're hoping to have.
You know, it's not for us as legislators, even me as a researcher to speak for them on what they want. Let's hear what they have to say. And so, I think that's a really important piece of policy development. But I think there's also this, as I said earlier, the resource constraint is really a, is really a challenge.
How do we put policies in place that provide funding that are for planning? That it's not about, you know, how many enrollments do we get right at the end of it? But sometimes it's that we need a year and a half just to buy people's time to figure it out. Our processes can be stodgy in higher ed, and they can be rigid.
And especially if you're a public agency, they can be hard. We need time to figure those things out. And we need resources to plan these programs. And I think that's really an important piece of that. And my hope is, you know, as we're looking even at the current presidential campaign, we have one ticket where it's folks that are coming from like rural colleges.
You know, like Tim Walz is front, went to Chadron State and, and University of Minnesota at Mankato, I believe. And, and, you know, so we're these, they're not community colleges, but these are rural colleges and I think the, and those are going to be places that are really in tuned to what their communities need.
And so, I'm actually kind of hopeful that even through the campaign, we're already starting to see a little bit of a conversation about these institutions that serve the masses. And, and I think that helps community colleges, too, by saying, you know, we don't, we don't need to talk about Penn and Yale and Harvard all the time, because this many students go to them. Rural community colleges, rural public four years, huge numbers go there. And so, I hope that changes.
Michelle Rathman: Wouldn't it be nice, Andrew if we could put community colleges and kind of mainstream versus what you're just talking about because there are more of them, and more people who are served by them as an aggregate than in some of these. And you just gave me a really, I mean, I think about this. Don't wait for your state policy makers to call you when they're coming through town and they want a photo opportunity. Invite them, encourage them, and empower your community to invite them to come and have those courageous conversations, not when they're looking for your support, but when you need it and, and maybe you'll agree with that.
Andrew Koricich: And I think part of it too, you know, there is this piece, you know, if you're going to do focus groups and things like that, invite people from the State Department of Ed or the Higher Ed State System Office, or whatever that is, not so much to participate, but to watch and listen. And, and I think the other thing that's really can be really powerful that I think sometimes gets lost is, invite them so they have to get to you.
And see how challenging geographic separation and distance, and all of these things are when they're driving through, they don't have cell service for 30 miles and all of those things, they are, theoretically, they sound challenging. But it's not until you're actually in those spaces and go, wait, people drive this far just to come to their classes every day that you truly understand that.
And I think by inviting folks from the state houses, from state departments and agencies to the physical campus, you just get to say, we're doing great work when we can get everybody here and get them to afford it.
Michelle Rathman: Despite the obstacles. You know, Andrew, this last point I'll make and, and we had Dee Davis on the show that just dropped, and he reminds me and so many others do, that the vast majority of our members of the house are not rural. They're not. There from urban centers. If you have a senator in Heidi Heitkamp when she was on the podcast too, she reminded us if you're if you have a senator, it's very likely they have rural in their resume, but your house members don't.
And so. what you just said, Andrew is an excellent point. Find a way to, you can't make them do anything, but find a way to inspire them, compel them to come to you.
And the last thing I'll say is, because we know this, if you are not at the table, you're on the menu.
Andrew Koricich: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and the point about the Senate is so great. You know, I think that's where the, some of the arguments are a little bit better pointed because every Senator has at least some rural folks in their constituents, they may not all pay attention to them. They may not all visit those places, but they are there.
And so, in theory, every Senator has an interest in representing rural communities.
Michelle Rathman: And not just in an election cycle.
Oh my gosh, Andrew, you and I should just go sit down and have some coffee.
Andrew Koricich: Yeah. You just let me know. I'll hit the road as soon as you tell me.
Michelle Rathman: Me too. I will too. Oh my gosh. Great insight, Andrew. Again, my thanks for sharing your insights and a great, big, huge thanks to Ascendium Education Group for their continued partnership and support and their collaboration for these conversations and everybody before we sign off, I want to remind you that we sure do appreciate you following us on social and subscribing.
If you do that, we send out our e-blast. You can get all the goods, research, things that Andrew will share with us and others. And when you rate our podcast, please just take that extra second and make a comment or two, because it does help people find us and it helps us to support our work and bring you more of these conversations.
Some of which are certainly not light subjects, but as always, we do hope they enlighten you. My thanks to Brea Corsaro and Sarah Staub, my mighty team, mad skills and creativity. And lastly, until we're together again, I really encourage you to take good care of yourself and everyone else around you.
We are the best at doing that, taking care of our friends and neighbors. So, thanks for joining us on another episode of the Rural Impact and we'll see you next time. Take good care.
